Flat carling

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I am having problems with my carling extra cold, most of the time it is fine but when we get busy it runs flat on about half the pints. I have called celler services and they say it is fine but they are only there when we are quiet or closed, I have replaced the glasses ( renovate every 4 weeks)and the glasswash machine, changed the detergent and rinse aid. I run co2 with one bottle for all the lagers and the others are fine. I have kept a diary of the customers and staff that have the issues and have been able to rule out peanuts and perfumes. it is always fresh clean glasses that i have the problem with. any ideas?

35 COMMENTS

  1. Interesting problem. You say it serves fine until you are busy. You need to check the tempeature during dispense. Even Extra cold beers can be too cold. Some lagers are designed to serve somewhere around 3 degrees centigrade , any colder and you might have flat beer problems. New glycol coolers will chill down to freezing easily, they are that efficient. I would check just how cold your beer is serving at as it sounds to me that it is too cold. Let us know how you get on.

  2. Cheers, that sounds plausable i have a three pint line so it could be warming slightly when it sits in the line but not getting a chance when i am busy so i will probe it now and then tonight when the problems start i will probe a flat one to see if there is a temperature change.
    Simon

  3. Cold may be the problem could we have a few more details, do you have a glycol extra cold system or ordinary python with under counter extra cold coolers or pods and what temperature is the cellar, has this started happening since the artic conditions. Are the Co2 bottles outside. How long does it take to pour a pint. We need to check everything is ok first.

  4. 6 wrote: If the Tech has called presumably he would have checked speed of dispense, balance pressures and temperature.

    Yes the tech guy did check these things but each time i have had them out they come first thing in the morning when it is pouring fine.

  5. 32 wrote: Cold may be the problem could we have a few more details, do you have a glycol extra cold system or ordinary python with under counter extra cold coolers or pods and what temperature is the cellar, has this started happening since the artic conditions. Are the Co2 bottles outside. How long does it take to pour a pint. We need to check everything is ok first.

    All the lagers come up through an ordenary python and the carling has a second cooler under the bar. the cellar is 12 degrees. I have been having the problem since i opened in october (this was after a refurb so all brand new glasses), the Co2 bottles are stored in the cellar and it takes 14 seconds to pour a pint, this was 3.1 degrees in temp.

  6. 322 wrote:

    All the lagers come up through an ordenary python and the carling has a second cooler under the bar. the cellar is 12 degrees. I have been having the problem since i opened in october (this was after a refurb so all brand new glasses), the Co2 bottles are stored in the cellar and it takes 14 seconds to pour a pint, this was 3.1 degrees in temp.

    Everything you have said sounds about right, there is only the balance pressure which you cannot check unless you have a gas vv with a gauge regulating pressure to the container; they don’t usually put them in these days. I am assuming that the lager is pouring flat and not tasting flat just looks flat. Or does it pour with a nice head, but then the head disappears very quickly? Do you have an electric or gas pump? We are slowly running out of options here. 😮

  7. This might be a bit esoteric but it could be worth a punt.Do you operate Flojet pumps or similar.If so are they powered by an air compressor.Reason I ask is this;

    Generally there is the Belt and Braces backup supply for this in the form of a switchhable supply from the CO2 bottles.The CO2 bottles also supply the relevant kegs as they are emptied.

    If the backup supply valve for the Flojets is turned to ON then the chances are that the air compressor is delivering pressure that is overcoming the CO2 pressure from the bottle.

    What this means is that Fresh Air is being delivered to the keg instead of the CO2 as recommended in the glossy brochure.Fresh air will send any beer flat quite readily.

    If this doesen’t relate to your setup,don’t worry.It will eliminate one line of enquiry.

    Good luck,good ale.

  8. I have an electric pump for the carling. the pint pours fine with a nice head and plenty of life but the bubbles coming from the bottom of the glass quickly disappear leaving the pint looking lifeless although the head itself remains leaving nice clear marks down the glass as the customer drinks. it is a bit like pouring a can of carling into a non nucleated glass.

  9. 179 wrote: This might be a bit esoteric but it could be worth a punt.Do you operate Flojet pumps or similar.If so are they powered by an air compressor.Reason I ask is this;

    Generally there is the Belt and Braces backup supply for this in the form of a switchhable supply from the CO2 bottles.The CO2 bottles also supply the relevant kegs as they are emptied.

    If the backup supply valve for the Flojets is turned to ON then the chances are that the air compressor is delivering pressure that is overcoming the CO2 pressure from the bottle.

    What this means is that Fresh Air is being delivered to the keg instead of the CO2 as recommended in the glossy brochure.Fresh air will send any beer flat quite readily.

    If this doesen’t relate to your setup,don’t worry.It will eliminate one line of enquiry.

    Good luck,good ale.

    Unfortunately i dont know what a flojet pump is therefor i dont know if i have one, there is an electric pump on the wall next to the carling which pumps the lager up to the bar would that be what you mean? I have checked and there is not a switch on it to flick over however i have noticed that there is often a half inch to an inch of air in the top of the cellarbouy, it does not drop low enough to stop the flow of beer but could this be relavent?

  10. That’s that line of enquiry exhausted then.

    I’m starting to wonder if the CO2 pressure into the keg is lower than it should be.This will require a qualified tech to sort it out,’cos he will have the tools to measure and adjust.

  11. 322 wrote: I have an electric pump for the carling. the pint pours fine with a nice head and plenty of life but the bubbles coming from the bottom of the glass quickly disappear leaving the pint looking lifeless although the head itself remains leaving nice clear marks down the glass as the customer drinks. it is a bit like pouring a can of carling into a non nucleated glass.

    I thought it was pouring flat that is why I asked about a electric pump, in that will give you a bit more omph in case you needed to increase the speed. By what you have just said it seems as if the equipment is working right if a perfect pint can be poured. Then hopefully we have narrowed it down to either the nucleated glasses or the glass washer. With beer being so cold these days it is a lot easier to keep the gas in suspension. But when it is in the glass it is up to etched bit in the bottom to give bubble rise and retain the head, and it sounds as if this isn’t happening. If you have different batches of glasses you could try them to see it only happens with certain glasses. This might explain why you get better bubble rise when the beer is slightly warmer.I have before now had faulty etched glasses though I’m not sure with Coors glasses, I think they have a couple of different types. Are we getting somewhere 🙂

  12. possibly, The glass wash machine was bought four weeks ago so I am sure that that is not the problem and I had previously dismissed the glasses as the cause because they are only a couple of months old and I have renovated them every 4 weeks so they should be in perfect condition but I did some experiments this evening, I used my San Miguel and Stella glasses for the carling (All fairly new as well) I had no flat pints but the Stella glasses produced an unimpressive amount of life and the San Miguel glasses varied from alright to excellent. I have also noted from reading a different thread that Carling do different glasses and mine are carling glasses not extra cold glasses so I am starting to think that it may be the glasses after all. I will try and get the right glasses and see how that goes.

    Thank you all for your help and ideas,
    Cheers Simon

  13. Bit of a clue there. You say a gap is appearing at the top of the cellarbouy. Generally that can be an indication of insufficient balance pressure. Balance pressure factors in – cellar temperature and product specification[brewers recomended presure]
    Tech should have checked that as a matter of course.
    If this problem is specific to Carling then factors such as cellar temperature and CO2 supply can be eliminated. If is is an on going problem and not just single kegs, then it is not a beer quality problem. The temperature is I think within specification. This leaves gas balance pressure. If this problem only occurs during busy service it may well be a defective secondary reducing valve. This is the valve that connects to the Carling keg. It may well be that if this valve is faulty it is not allowing sufficient gas through on high demand. I have known this to happen. Best thing get Coors Tech back out and suggest he or she check the gas system out .

  14. 6 wrote: Bit of a clue there. You say a gap is appearing at the top of the cellarbouy. Generally that can be an indication of insufficient balance pressure. Balance pressure factors in – cellar temperature and product specification[brewers recomended presure]
    Tech should have checked that as a matter of course.
    If this problem is specific to Carling then factors such as cellar temperature and CO2 supply can be eliminated. If is is an on going problem and not just single kegs, then it is not a beer quality problem. The temperature is I think within specification. This leaves gas balance pressure. If this problem only occurs during busy service it may well be a defective secondary reducing valve. This is the valve that connects to the Carling keg. It may well be that if this valve is faulty it is not allowing sufficient gas through on high demand. I have known this to happen. Best thing get Coors Tech back out and suggest he or she check the gas system out .

    Are you on the right thread or forgotten to take the medication lol

    (smillleyac)

  15. 322 wrote: possibly, The glass wash machine was bought four weeks ago so I am sure that that is not the problem and I had previously dismissed the glasses as the cause because they are only a couple of months old and I have renovated them every 4 weeks so they should be in perfect condition but I did some experiments this evening, I used my San Miguel and Stella glasses for the carling (All fairly new as well) I had no flat pints but the Stella glasses produced an unimpressive amount of life and the San Miguel glasses varied from alright to excellent. I have also noted from reading a different thread that Carling do different glasses and mine are carling glasses not extra cold glasses so I am starting to think that it may be the glasses after all. I will try and get the right glasses and see how that goes.

    Thank you all for your help and ideas,
    Cheers Simon

    Good …… slowly runnling out of idea’s let us know how you get on. 😮

  16. 6 wrote: Bit of a clue there. You say a gap is appearing at the top of the cellarbouy.

    This tells me that there is gas transgression across the keg connector rubberwork,largely down to the appropriate seal has work hardened with use and is starting to become ineffective.

  17. 6 wrote: Bit of a clue there. You say a gap is appearing at the top of the cellarbouy. Generally that can be an indication of insufficient balance pressure. Balance pressure factors in – cellar temperature and product specification[brewers recomended presure]
    Tech should have checked that as a matter of course.
    If this problem is specific to Carling then factors such as cellar temperature and CO2 supply can be eliminated. If is is an on going problem and not just single kegs, then it is not a beer quality problem. The temperature is I think within specification. This leaves gas balance pressure. If this problem only occurs during busy service it may well be a defective secondary reducing valve. This is the valve that connects to the Carling keg. It may well be that if this valve is faulty it is not allowing sufficient gas through on high demand. I have known this to happen. Best thing get Coors Tech back out and suggest he or she check the gas system out .

    179 wrote:

    This tells me that there is gas transgression across the keg connector rubberwork,largely down to the appropriate seal has work hardened with use and is starting to become ineffective.

    I don’t know I’ve looked everywhere and I can’t see where there is a "gap in the cellarbuoy" mentioned in the whole thread. lol

    (dance)

  18. 322 wrote:
    I have checked and there is not a switch on it to flick over however i have noticed that there is often a half inch to an inch of air in the top of the cellarbouy, it does not drop low enough to stop the flow of beer but could this be relavent?

    This bit possibly.(smillleyu)

  19. 179 wrote:

    This bit possibly.(smillleyu)

    Oops! perhaps I should go on the medication – I take back all I said and sorry barfly

    (behead)

  20. The best medication available would be at a certain Mr or Mrs s.diproses establishment.

    Please read below where it says "Can’t take a joke " etc.

    Happy New Year,by the way.Sorry not to mention that earlier.Ever the silly old sod. 😛

    In the meantime,Mr or Mrs s.diprose do you have any further gen to add in please?

  21. All this talk of a fat starling is absolutely not true. Where I live, the last snow and ice we had has had a dramatic effect on our local bird life. Infact all the starlings I see hopping about are any thing but fat. Inndoctor get your facts right.

  22. Sounds to be like gas starvation on the Keg. It happens when you are busy so the gas system cannot get enough gas into the keg as the beer is going out, this will cause it to go flat. You said that all lagers are on the same CO2 but I guess the others are not as busy so the gas system can keep up. One option is to get the keg drop split so you run two kegs , another option is to install another co2 valve or move other products onto mixed gas.

  23. If it was a gas pressure fault ie gas starvation then the electric pump would suck out the beer before the pressure could fill the fobber (cellarbouy) and cut it out; this is not happening. As the fault has only been since the referb, it could be an installation problem rather than equipment breakdown, assuming the equipment was working fine at install.

  24. Don’t know if this issue has been resolved or not. But I would almost start at the glasses, as mentioned check out that thread suggested about the glasses.. Currently there is mixture of Carling glasses out in trade.. As you state this is a newish install you could have the newer Generic glass..I will 1st describe the type of glasses..

    Spot on Glasses, there is 2 types of this glass, Standard and Extra Cold. This is due to having Spot On stamped onto the bottom of the glass. Standard will just have the outline of the words Spot On and state just Carling moulded on the glass. Extra Cold will have the Outline of Spot On dotted in and also state Extra Cold on the Glass.

    Generic : Now these have been a bit of a pain to some Tr’s due to them looking like the standard Spot On glass ie no extra cold on the face of the glass.. These as stated just have "Carling" moulded on the face and come in 2 forms of etching on the bottom of the glass.. Etched Carling in a diagonal cheveron or a etched Circle with criss cross etch’s around the circle. To be honest these new glasses are a inbetween of the Spot On Glasses, Slightly more nucleation then Standard and Slightly Less then Extra Cold..

    I would 1st Check you have the right glass(you’ll be surprised customers unaware of difference) Any Standard Spot On I would remove if extra cold dispence is all you have..

    I would also check to make sure you have enough of the glasses. As Carling is popular, the glasses could be used up faster and maybe not drying/cooling fast enough(condensation within the glass?).. If this is a issue obviously try to get hold of more, or try to introduce some kind of stock rotation with glasses that have been washed.. What could also help is that if you turn the glass when they come out of the glasswasher they dry quicker… This is what I state as a Wet/Warm glass.

    Usually this issue is mostly down to the above and fits in with what you have stated within the thread.

    I will try to keep a eye on this thread to see further comments.. But I would get a TR out to go thru the normal checks and if they have anything about them, they should be able to resolve or pin point factors that contribute to Poor Presentation.

  25. Yes! I also think its a glass problem thanks for giving a very thorough description of the problems recognizing the different Carling glasses. I have been told but I can never remember which is which. 🙂

  26. Good call,and I will echo Mavericks comment.Thank you for enlightenment.

    What did we do before Nucleation?I seem to recall we had Sparklers to make it fizzy.

  27. Back to basics – your glasses aren’t dry. You say the problem occurs when you get busy – at a time when each glass is perhaps only ten minutes out of the glass washer. I had this problem at my pub and I noticed that if I lined up my glasses according to how long they’d been out of the glass washer, then I could keep on top of so called flat beer. It takes at least an hour for a glass to dry.

    Simple things such as turning all the glasses the right way up after you’ve emptied the glass washer allows steam to escape and water to evaporate.

    Invest in more glasses.

    Though perhaps a feature of old courage best adverts, hand drying is coming back into fashion in a number of the upmarket bars in town where there is always a great pint to be had. I’ve noticed some establishments even employ a bar back solely for this purpose. Just make sure you have lint free cloths and that you use a fresh one every couple of hours.

  28. Thanks for reminding us edman on here we are always looking for problems with equipment etc. When more often or not it is how the equipment or in this case glasses and the cleaning ritual. you mention some very good points. In reality I suppose you could write a book on the subject. 😮

  29. Odd to relate,I was given to understand that hand drying was illegal under Environmental Health rules.Can anyone quote chapter and verse on this one,or have I been fed a load of bullshit?

  30. 179 wrote: Odd to relate,I was given to understand that hand drying was illegal under Environmental Health rules.Can anyone quote chapter and verse on this one,or have I been fed a load of bullshit?

    I would like to know as I’m noticing it in some top class establisments.

  31. 311 wrote:

    I would like to know as I’m noticing it in some top class establisments.

    I’ve spoken to a friend of a friend who is a general manager at a small gastropub group and it is perfectly legal.

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