One for Chemisphere.

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Ronnie at the Eb,where I have cleaned the lines for the last 4 years or so,was advised that the Chemisphere Pipeline product is The Thing to use.Today we tried it for the first time.After several months of seeing no detritus in the bottom of the bucket today there was a bit of crap appeared from 4 of the 6 handpull lines.The 6 top pressure lines showed no problems as per the guidance of the Chemisphere gen.Personally I’m chuffed to bollocks.

What I want to know is;
In what way does the action of a Potassium Hydroxide based solution differ from one that is Sodium Hydroxide based?

Which one of the two is less likely to interfere adversely with the septic tank sewerage facilities that continue to be all the rage in our part of rural Lincolnshire?

Why does the green colour match that of the John Smiths Smooth Font?

Why are the recommended concentration levels greater than those of a Sodium Hydroxide based product?

I have a genuine interest in doing my bit right which is why I would like to understand what I am dealing with.Answers please…

19 COMMENTS

  1. Very good questions tall alex bet you don’t get a reply. Very rarely companies will discuss their product in great detail on somewhere like here. Have used pipeline in the past though you have to use it by instructions to the letter good product. I haven’t tried the pipeline gold yet is that what you are using?(smillleyab)

  2. G’day patsy,
    I’ve been back today for the regular Thrutch.Pipeline 7 is the Goop of choice.Yet again had some detritus from the handpulls.
    The crap that appeared(a few flakes of fagashlike appearance only brown)were on the first and second pulling of the handle on each of the second cleaning draw and the first flushing draw.
    This tells me that it is deposition in the cylinder and swan neck nozzle.This also tells me to put the Sparkler on for the duration of the cleaning process so as to replicate the conditions encountered during regular service.

    Chemisphere,
    You have been noted by me as lurking.Answers Please?

  3. Hi Alex, Nice to hear rom you. How are things? This Pipeline 7 sounds like it is doing the business. Never used it myself, bit of a Proton user myself. Still, interesting to hear about other line cleaners.

  4. G’day Boz,
    We won’t really know the difference for a while yet but if it’s doing what it should then there shouldn’t be much of note to report.

  5. G’day Den,
    Strange to relate,if you mix colourless and Indicator fluid in your solution it all goes green in the vessel.Odder still it is possible to find your green solution coming out of the dispense end as a splendid vibrant purple.

    The thing I like about the indicator colourant is that it tells you if there is a problem.It doesn’t tell you the nature of the snag,just that it’s there.It will mostly go non purple on the first lineful as that’s the first cleaning thrutch and do not despair as the second lineful will probably be fine.While we are at it,if the solution concentration is low,half a pint of goop instead of a pint,it will show as purple(well pink really)on the first lineful thus lulling one into a false sense of adequacy.

    The thing I like about the colourless gear is that you can see any crap floating about as it appears.

    Something else about the indicator,generally it is a substance known as Potassium Permanganate.Crystalline in pure form it invariably shows up as though one has pissed oneself in front of a room full of women one wishes to cop off with.

    Cash and Carry line cleaning fluids do tend to be a lower concentration than proprietry concoctions,but a quick read of the labelling(if there is any)will give you a clue as to the correction to make for your desired needs.

    Sorry to be a boring git.

    P.S.What’s the difference between Pink and Purple?

    Ones Grip…

  6. Our products have never contained caustic soda [NaOH] and, if you will, this is both our advantage and disadvantage. Caustic Soda [sodium hydroxide – NaOH] has certain properties:
    • It is cheap – not expensive
    • It is very aggressive and not very sophisticated; it is only surface-active: thus, when used initially and for a short while after, the user gets the impression of a spectacularly good cleaner, with deposits being removed, etc. However, over a period of time, this good impression gives way to a more circumspect one, as it becomes apparent that the cleaning process is becoming less and less effective.
    • It is very aggressive; corrosive. It degrades beer lines far more than does potassium hydroxide [KOH].
    • NaOH produces insoluble biproducts from the cleaning process. These can be responsible for producing a stable secondary biofilm and makes NaOH [caustic soda] difficult to rinse out. Therefore, far more rinse water is required to rinse out NaOH and infections build up over a period of time.
    • NaOH “clings” to the line; and, again, more water is required for rinsing and the technician has to be careful to ensure that he has used enough rinse water to make the line safe for the beer to go back on again.

    THE ADVANTAGES OF POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE [KOH]. We use Potassium Hydroxide [KOH] in our products and this is one of the differences which have given us advantages over the years. KOH has many advantages:
    • Rinseability; KOH does not “cling” to the surface of the line like caustic soda does, and so does not require as much rinsing. You, yourself, will know that this quality is much appreciated by technicians and licensee’s, since they only have to spend the minimum of time and use the minimum of water on the rinse process.
    • The biproducts of the cleaning process are soluble, unlike those of the caustic soda cleaning process; therefore, the rinsing is more efficient, thorough and quicker.
    • KOH gives better biofilm removal and, therefore a sterile environment is more likely to be produced.
    • Sophisticated; we are able to incorporate sophisticated tannin removers and corrosion inhibitors into our formulations which would not be possible if we were to employ NaOH [caustic soda]
    However, KOH also has the disadvantage that it has never been cheap – it has certainly never been as cheap as NaOH [caustic soda] which manufacturers, who want to imitate our products, use. Until eighteen months ago, the price differential between KOH and
    NaOH was distinct – but not unmanageable. However, in recent times, the price of raw KOH has risen by over 200%, whereas NaOH has risen by (only) 100%.
    Regarding Pipeline Gold, this is cutting edge technology in our industry. There is no chlorine in the product and uses sophisticated sufactants and sequestrants to produce a highly effective dispense system cleaner, ideal for technicians attending neglected lines. It works by penetrating, lifting and emulsifying soil and biofilm. A great tool to have in your locker!

    Apologies for the delay in this reply….I am now registered so I will try and keep abreast of postings on the forum.

  7. Have been line cleaning for as many years as I care to remember, I tried your pipeline gold the other day. There is a couple of points I would like to bring up. For many years you have been advocating how useful it is to have a dye based cleaner or to your credit your company pioneered it in the first place. However now you have gone completely the other way in that it is very difficult to tell if the lines are yeasty (not keen on the term biofilm) or not, the colour looks hazy whether they are clean or not. I do a couple of big accounts where it has 8 or 9 pints in the line. It takes ½ hour to draw cleaning solution through from the first to the last tap. So to do so every 10 mins isn’t possible.

    I used to work as a technician for one of the main companies and then we used to use pipeline professional on problem accounts, it certainly did the job. The only problem being that it takes quite a long time to achieve these results and you can use quite a lot of product. There are now a lot of companies trying to emulate your dye based cleaning solution (whether potassium hydroxide sodium hydroxide), some very poor ones as well.

    380 wrote:
    • Rinseability; KOH does not “cling” to the surface of the line like caustic soda does, and so does not require as much rinsing. You, yourself, will know that this quality is much appreciated by technicians and licensee’s, since they only have to spend the minimum of time and use the minimum of water on the rinse process.

    Think it stems from my youth, never went in my local early on a Wednesday evening because it was line-cleaning day and there always seemed to be a bit of a taste on the ale. So much so that I am now very thorough on flushing through no matter which line cleaner I use. I have always thought it being the most important part as well as getting rid of cleaning solution it gets rid of any debris that is left. Thank you for the explaining the differences between the two types of cleaners or is now three? I’m sure It will be a good reference point on here as well as the web. cheers 😮

  8. Question for Profpipeline. I look after the line cleaning at a very large account with 150 dispensers. The lines are in very good order with no yeast problems. However the lines are now 16 years old. The brewery is reluctant to change them due to the lines being so difficult to access, fire walls etc.
    My question is this Prof, baring in mind the above what cleaner should I be using to prolong these lines. I know they won’t last forever, but I need to try and make them last. Thanks in advance.

  9. I would use Pipeline for your weekley clean and at least once a year bottom the system out with a ‘Bottoming Out Kit’. I have customers who have been using Pipeline for near 25 years on the same lines and the microbiology report confirms there is no damage to the dispense surface.

  10. Thanks Prof, I will give it a go. Some of the lines I look after hold 12 pints, thats how big the run is . Cheers.

  11. 6 wrote: Thanks Prof, I will give it a go. Some of the lines I look after hold 12 pints, thats how big the run is . Cheers.

    Sounds like a stadium lol >:(

    3 wrote: Over 200 meters from cellar to bar – that is one hell of a run

    How do you work that out I have a bar with 7 pints in the line I’m sure it isn’t 100 metres (16gall wastage) it is long I will measure my shoe-steps and do some measuring.

  12. 3 wrote:

    How do you work that out I have a bar with 7 pints in the line I’m sure it isn’t 100 metres (16gall wastage) it is long I will measure my shoe-steps and do some measuring.

    There is approx one pint in 20 meters 3/8 beer line. There is also approx one pint in the python m/c coil and cellarbuoy. This guide is for EACH tap

    If your wastage is 7 pints per tap then your python run will be approx 120 meters ( 6 x 20 )

    This is solely the amount of liquid in the lines, not what you feel you need to pull off after you have pulled water through

  13. There is actually one pint in 15m of python. agree the typical cooler and fob amounts to one pint (unless its metered then add another pint for meter and stroke completion fob).

    This means 7 pints waste is 90m which is fairly typical for a stadium.

  14. In view of the length of the lines and number of lines you are cleaning, you would be better with Pipeline Professional. The will be a significant saving in labour. Send me your contact details via my Inn Doctor inbox and I’ll arrange to send a FOC sample to you.

  15. Just had a look at the Chemisphere website, I noticed a product called pipeline 14 which when used with the bottoming out kit states that you only have to clean lines once a fortnight! This goes against the grain as I have always cleaned weekly and have always been advised that this is correct. But if this product actually works like this your wastage would be cut by 50%, a massive saving over a year. My problem is I have a large function room that is only open Fri/Sat/Sun if I used this product then once a fortnight I would be pulling beer through that has been stood in the line for well over 4 days. I wouldn’t be happy about serving beer that has been stood for so long. Any advice ?

  16. 317 wrote: Just had a look at the Chemisphere website, I noticed a product called pipeline 14 which when used with the bottoming out kit states that you only have to clean lines once a fortnight! This goes against the grain as I have always cleaned weekly and have always been advised that this is correct. But if this product actually works like this your wastage would be cut by 50%, a massive saving over a year. My problem is I have a large function room that is only open Fri/Sat/Sun if I used this product then once a fortnight I would be pulling beer through that has been stood in the line for well over 4 days. I wouldn’t be happy about serving beer that has been stood for so long. Any advice ?

    Your function room could be on a 10 day cycle. If you cleaned the lines on the Thursday absolutely very thoroughly (after using the bottoming out kit) you may get away with it. It would be worth a try you would only flush through with beer which you would throw away on a line clean anyway, but at the end of the day it depends how old your pipes are, how cold your cellar is how efficient your coolers are etc etc. Apparently some of the big Pub Groups now expect this. But you have the right attitude quality must come before savings or you are on a slippery slope. Let us know how you get on.

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